68. Why High Quality Furniture is Worth the Investment | Luis Ruesga, CEO of Zuo Modern

Karthik Chidambaram: Hello, everyone! Welcome to a new episode of Driven by
DCKAP. I'm your host, Karthik Chidambaram, CEO of DCKAP. We make systems
talk to each other for manufacturers and distributors.

We are here in Oakland, California, the San Francisco Bay Area, with Luis
Ruesga, the Chief Executive Officer of Zuo Modern, a wholesaler and
distributor of furniture.

Luis, it's an absolute pleasure to be chatting with you, and thank you for
joining me.

Luis Ruesga: Thank you for the invitation. It's a pleasure to be here with
you. Welcome to Oakland, California, like you say, at the headquarters of
Zuo Modern. And thank you for taking the time to your busy schedule to be
here with us. It's a pleasure to have you.

Karthik Chidambaram: Oh, it's an absolute pleasure, Luis, and thank you for
your time.

Luis, in preparation to this interview, I was researching a little bit. And
one thing which caught my attention on your LinkedIn was you started your
career as a bartender before ZuoMod. But one thing, which made me feel
really good, is you also had that listed on your LinkedIn as you worked
there as a bartender from this date to that date.

So, you know, it kind of teaches you the origins and I think that's a great
story for everyone. Can you tell us about your early days bartending, and
how did you transition from bartending to ZuoMod?

Luis Ruesga: I think, first of all, everybody should be proud of every job
that you ever had. It doesn't matter what it was. And I love to see on the
LinkedIn profiles when you started flipping burgers at McDonald's. Why not?
If that was your first job, do it.

So, for me, when I was attending college and grad school to pay for my
student loans like everybody else, got a job at bartending. I loved it. I
had a lot of fun, and I made a lot of connections. And I also think that it
was my early lesson in life on how to be a salesperson.

How can I sell you another drink? How can I make you laugh? How can I have
fun with you from the other side? So I love my bartender days. I wish I
could go back to these, one weekend every year or something to do it again.

Karthik Chidambaram: So it's amazing. It teaches you a lot of sales skills.
I could relate to that as well. You know, when I was doing my engineering. I
was running some programs for the college and I used to go door to door.
Hey, buy this, you know, become a sponsor for this campus event. We would
love to host you and all that, you know, so that was very, very cool.

But how did you get into furniture? You co-founded the company with Steve
Poon. So how did you get into the furniture business?

Luis Ruesga: Well, once I graduated from Berkeley, I had to find my first
job, right? It was time to mature and no longer to be a bartender anymore.
And I got my first job at a small company who sells office supplies.

And, funny story, the person who interviewed me was Steve Boon. So, that's
how I met him. I started working with him there and we became really, really
good friends, such good friends that we started planning, like, hey, how can
we do this on our own? We were young. We were, I think, like 30 years old,
29 years old.

And we're like, hey, how can we do this together? And that's where the idea
of creating a company named Zuo, and to start selling four office chairs
started.

Karthik Chidambaram: How did the name Zuo come about?

Luis Ruesga: So, the name of Zuo, it was my partner's idea. He wanted a
strong word. Something that didn't mean anything in the vocabulary. But that
means something for us. So the meaning of Zuo in Cantonese, for what I
understand, is seat. And at that point, we were selling chairs. So we really
liked the way the name presented. We wanted to be either the first company
or the last company in the directory of a trade show. So it was easy for you
to remember it.

And that's what Zuo started. And it sticks. It sticks so much that sometimes
when I'm walking on the street, people yell at me, Mr. Zuo, even. That's not
my last name. Right?

Karthik Chidambaram: Very cool. I mean, I've definitely read and also
believe that, you know, being first in the directory is helpful, but I can
relate to it. Even if you're last in the directory, it's a good thing
because people look at the start and they look in the bottom.

Luis Ruesga: It is very streaky because some of the companies they list.
Like, for example, when you're online and you're looking at the list of
exhibitors, nobody makes it to the C. So, it can be a good thing or a bad
thing.

Karthik Chidambaram: And working with Steve, right? So, you guys have been
together for 20 years. You're the co-founder of the company. What are some
of the highs and lows? And let's say, you know, if there are disagreements,
how do you guys manage all that?

Luis Ruesga: So, 50/50. And it has been, you know, It has been a very
friendship, but a very respectful relationship, I think. And he can
correlate with this. We had one fight over the 20 years, and it was
regarding the smell of the candles inside the showroom. So, and I think it
was not really a fight. It was more, we were under so much pressure. It was
one of our first shows. He wanted one smell. I wanted another smell, just
stupid like that.

I think how the partnership works for us is very simple. I do sales and
marketing, and he hates sales and marketing. And he does operational
logistics, and I'm not in operations and logistics. So we don't get on each
other's toes. He let me do my thing, he does his thing. And at the end, it
works together, and we keep growing the company that way.

Karthik Chidambaram: And you guys compliment each other really well.

Luis Ruesga: Yeah, I think I think that's the best part when you have a
wife, or when you have a partnership. It's just, if you find that perfect
match, the sky's the limit.

Karthik Chidambaram: So what is ZuoMod’s primary business? You distribute,
or you wholesale, what is the primary business?

Luis Ruesga: The primary business is the distribution. You know, we source
from about 85 different factories in 5 different countries, bring the
products in here into the United States, Canada, or Mexico, and we do the
distribution for here.

Karthik Chidambaram: And you also design the products.

Luis Ruesga: That is correct, yeah. We have a team of five people you know,
headed by Katie in our office in Hong Kong. She's the head of the site, and
she not only designs the products, but the sites, the textures, and the
trends that we're going to go in the next years. So, we will have regular
meetings with the design team and say, hey, what do you see in terms of
colors, in terms of fabrics, in terms of texture? But our design team comes
with all those crazy ideas.

Karthik Chidambaram: And design becomes a big differentiator when it comes
to furniture, because people buy furniture because of the design.

Luis Ruesga: Yes, yes. So, you're absolutely right. When you are in the
fashion business, the design element is the most important and unfortunately
we made a mistake in one of our collections.

I think it was 2021 for outdoor and it was a catastrophe on outdoor, you
know, we couldn't even sell it. We didn't get the right design and people
noticed and people didn't buy it because of that.

Karthik Chidambaram: So you guys don't do retail, it's mostly B2B?

Luis Ruesga: Only B2B, yes. We have always, the company started like that
19-20 years ago.

And we're very successful at it, so we don't want to change that forever.

Karthik Chidambaram: And I saw you recently opened a showroom in Atlanta as
well, so tell us about that. What does that do? Is it like a walk-in center
where I can just go see? What do you have available, or what is that?

Luis Ruesga: No, I wish. We have three permanent showrooms. One in High
Point, North Carolina, Las Vegas, Nevada, and the most recent, Atlanta,
Georgia.

In these three showrooms, you can only go in if you have a recent licensed
business. Either you can be a hotel, a restaurant, a bar, an interior
designer, but not the end consumer. This is not a place where you can buy
products just like a retail store.

Karthik Chidambaram: So, let's say if I run a hotel or if I run a hospital,
I would come to ZuoMod and then you would pretty much furnish the entire
hospital or entire hotel for me?

Luis Ruesga: Not the entire. We only touch some specific products. So, we're
really strong at seating tables, occasionally, but we're not really strong
at bedrooms or case goods.

So, for example, and I'm just like, let's say we're in the Las Vegas
showroom and the Caesar's Palace is coming. And if they're looking for
bedrooms, I'm not going to be able to help them. But if they're looking for
30 new bar stools for the casino, I'm your guy for that.

Karthik Chidambaram: I looked at your bar stools, you know, it's really well
designed. So, do you guys design those bar stools or how is that?

Luis Ruesga: That is correct. So, bar stool is probably one of our strongest
categories. We have about 500 different models. Some are made out of wood,
metal, fabric, so all different materials, all for different applications.
And I think that's one of the products that we're known the most for.

Karthik Chidambaram: The bar stools.

Luis Ruesga: That is correct, yeah.

Karthik Chidambaram: And when it comes to manufacturing, you guys also
manufacture the furniture, right? In addition to design, you also
manufacture the furniture?

Luis Ruesga: So, it's a little bit more complicated than that. And let's
take an example of this chair. Nice chair. So, for example, this specific
chair, we will outsource the base from somebody.

We will buy the piston from another person. We will buy the fabric from
another person. For another person, we will buy the, the, the plywood that
is inside from another person. What we do ourselves is in our warehouse in
China, we put all those together into one box, right? So we're outsourcing
components to make one product as the final and ship it directly to the
States.

Karthik Chidambaram: And that is being done in China?

Luis Ruesga: No, everywhere. Five countries. China, India, Malaysia,
Vietnam, and Mexico.

Karthik Chidambaram: And what are some of the supply chain challenges, you
know, especially when you have across five countries, what are some of the
supply chain challenges you see, or all of them?

Luis Ruesga: So, you know, it's, it's weather is one of them.

If it's a monsoon happening in China right now, or if they are in holidays
in India, or if there is a shortage of boats coming on the ocean you know,
there is always, you know, There is always something that is going to go
wrong, but when you have so many products hopefully the one or two that have
an issue, they're not noticeable because you have 1,900 other products to
choose from.

Karthik Chidambaram: So it's very interesting. You know, you work across
multiple countries and you get the products, you assemble it, you get the
products from different sources, assemble it there, get it shipped to the U.
S. And is it more like furniture on demand, or you pre order it, or how does
that work?

Luis Ruesga: It's an act of faith.

So when we look at a product like this table, we will say, well, how many do
we think? I mean, our data tell us a lot of things, right? We already know
how much of these side tables sell a year, and we're going to take an act of
faith and say, well, this is a really good design. I might start with a
higher order or we're going to start with a smaller order.

And then our ERP system will tell us, like, hey, what is the velocity of the
item, you should reorder it or you should discontinue it.

Karthik Chidambaram: And you guys invest a lot in technology. Thank you for
being a DCKAP customer.

Luis Ruesga: Thank you.

Karthik Chidambaram: And technology also is a big differentiator for you,
being in the Bay Area. So, can you tell us about that and how is technology
impacting your company for better growth?

Luis Ruesga: I think people love the fact that we use tech, like for
example, our portal on our website. It's- our customers love it. I mean,
it's so easy for them to go and see their previous invoices, to see what's
in the stock, to use the filters, to see, you know, you can search only for
pink chairs or for red sofas.

What is in stock? What is shipping in two weeks? I want to see the tracking
number for my previous order. So there is, you know, we believe in
technology. I think people don't want to call me on the phone and say, Hey,
Luis, where's my sofa that I ordered last week? So we're making that a lot,
a lot easier. We also use technology for content.

Not only AI, but you know the way we're creating our images, renders And I
max files to do three D rotations. So technology is important for us. And I
think being based in the Bay Area, we are obligated to be in the head of the
technology.

Karthik Chidambaram: And being in the barrier also helps you find more
customers because there are a lot of customers in the area.

Luis Ruesga: There is. There is a big, big corporation. You know, they're
like restoration on hardware. Z Gallery, Pottery Barn, William and Sonoma,
you know, Cost Plus There is a lot of furniture companies based out here in
the Bay Area, but we specialize nationwide, so we go for customers all over
the United States.

Karthik Chidambaram: And switching gears a little bit, you know, when it
comes to furniture, you know, one thing which comes to mind is, hey, we have
to cut trees and, you know, it hurts the environment and all that. And
sustainability is a very, very big component. And geomodern. Also focuses a
lot on sustainability. Tell us about your sustainability initiatives when it
comes to furniture.

Luis Ruesga: So, compliance is a big thing for Steve Poon. So, Steve runs
also the compliance department. And, first of all, we want to make sure that
all the materials that we're using are according to the law. So, there is a
lot of regulations on furniture. One of them is the foam, you know. We want
to make sure that the foam doesn't have chemicals.

That is going to give cancer to the end consumer. We're going to also make
sure that the glue that is in the furniture, it's for my height compliance
so that this is not going to affect the fumes into your home. You don't want
your home to smell like glue, right? So we're going to make sure that all
the dressers or all the furniture That is against the wall, it has anchors
so it doesn't fall on you.

So, all these are compliance things that Steve and his team review on every
single one of the products. We also want to use the least amount of new
materials. Okay? So, we're going to take a look and say, hey, if we're going
to make this new chair, what can we use from other products? Can we, do we
have bases left or can we use recycled steel to make the base for this chair
or what is the content of this fabric?

We don't want to use a hundred percent new cotton, can we use recycled
polyesters? So, all those things help us to have a total percentage of new
material used every year and that's a statement that we can pass to our
customers at the end.

Karthik Chidambaram: And when it comes to a new furniture which I buy, what
percentage of that is used and what percentage is new, or does that varies
depending on the brand?

Luis Ruesga: Nothing that you buy from us is used. Everything is 100 percent
new. What we do is recycle the materials. So, for example, the foam. You can
produce new foam, but you can use recycled foam. And what is recycled foam?
Well, it's the foam leftovers from the other furniture that you recycle
again. I'd make it.

You know, you can use it again for new furniture, so that's when I say what
I'm trying to mean when I say, yeah, recycled,.

Karthik Chidambaram: And you manufacture in five different countries. How do
you design? You know which furniture to manufacture? Where and how do you
choose the country for manufacturing?

Luis Ruesga: Each individual country is great at doing each specific
product.

So for example, China is really good at making metal and modifying metal
products. Office chairs, bar stools, they're fantastic at that. India is
great at making all the small accessories, mirrors, cast aluminum. Cast
aluminum, is one of the only countries that can make that. So, that is
fantastic for them.

Upholstery, this is something we do in Mexico. Mexico is close by, easy to
transport, easy to modify. So depending on the material of the product,
we're going to use each country.

Karthik Chidambaram: And where in India are you manufacturing?

Luis Ruesga: We do a lot of it in Moradabad. So we have about eight
factories in Moradabad where we consolidate. And we do some production in
Jaipur. Most of our products ship out of Mundra Port.

Karthik Chidambaram: Oh, Mundra Port. Okay. And when it comes to furniture,
and this is a question I always had, you know, because our thought process
is, maybe the furniture companies operate on very high margins.

Luis Ruesga: Yeah.

Karthik Chidambaram: So what are your thoughts there?

Luis Ruesga: I don't think so. I wish I could have a bigger, you know, like,
I wish I had a plane so I can say that furniture is great. No, it's not. I
think the problem with the furniture is it's big, it's bulky. So you have to
think of the ocean freight that this chair pay compared to a book. You have
to think of the materials that furniture is used. Furniture is big.
Furniture needs to be resistant. Furniture needs to be heavy. So that's a
lot of the cost and that's why probably people might get the idea that
furniture is expensive.

Karthik Chidambaram: So one thing that really caught my attention is, which
you were just talking about, is the kind of materials you use in the
furniture. I didn't know that there were so many intricate details when it
comes to buying furniture. As a consumer, how do I know which furniture to
buy?

For instance, sometimes when I buy furniture, I spend a lot of money, and
then I bring it home, and two, three days, you know, it breaks. You know, my
heart is broken. I spent so much money, and, you know, the furniture is
broken. So what advice would you give there, you know, in terms of buying
furniture?

Luis Ruesga: I say, do your research beforehand. Make sure that the brand
that you're buying it from, the retail store or the manufacturer, has a good
reputation. Read your reviews.

I mean, that's what they're for. If you're going to buy furniture from
myuglyfurniture.com, it might break really fast, but if you are buying
furniture from the manufacturer you believe and you trust, and you know that
if something goes wrong, they're going to support you 100%, go for them.

Karthik Chidambaram: Luis, how do you see the future of the furniture
industry evolving and the role of Zuo Mod?

Luis Ruesga: You know, furniture is something that we're always going to
need. I remember The days that we were worried that the millennials were
never going to buy a house and they were going to leave traveling and that
didn't happen.

I mean, you look at the consumption of homes, the desire, especially of the
American dream is to own your own property. And I guarantee you that every
couple is always going to look for that first home and how are they going to
furnish. So, my job at Zuo Modern is to keep that dream alive by providing
you the most beautiful furniture for the best cost available.

And that way, you know, everybody will keep enjoying their new home.
Manufacturing, we will keep looking into more alternative ways of
manufacturing to be friendlier with the environment and to develop business
in more countries, you know.

Karthik Chidambaram: When it comes to buying furniture, I'm a kind of guy
who does not want to invest a lot in furniture. I'm like, you know, I want
to buy cheap furniture, but, you know, which looks really, really good, or
maybe go to a Walmart or an Ikea and just buy something and just be done
with it. So what advice would you give me, or someone like me?

Luis Ruesga: So, let's talk about two different scenarios. And the first
scenario is the rule in furniture. It says that you should spend about 10
percent of what the cost of your house on furniture. So, what that means is,
if you have a home here in the Bay Area and you pay 1 million, you're going
to spend 100,000 on furniture. And why is this rule? Because you want to
have the same comparison of quality of the furniture than the quality of the
home.

Okay? It's not the same if you use that 100,000 in an 8,000,000 house.
You're gonna make the house look very cheap. But you don't want to put a
very expensive half a million dollar furniture on a 1,000,000 house. Because
then it's gonna look ridiculous. Right? So, you want to match the home with
the furniture that you're doing.

Remember this, and this is, I suggest this to the people. The place that
you're going to spend the most time is your home. Make it a place that
you're going to enjoy. Make it a place that instead of you trying to go out
for dinner every night, you want to get home to have dinner in your
beautiful dining table and chairs.

So, treat your home like this is your most special place. Secret place,
right? In the hospitality world, if you're opening a bar and you're going to
need 30 restaurants, you're going to have about 5 people sitting on that bar
stool every day. You want to make sure that bar stool is going to last. You
want to make sure that you're investing, even if it's 100 or 300, that bar
stool is going to last for 3 years at least.

Otherwise your bar is going to look like garbage. So match the style of your
furniture. Thank you. And you'd budget with what you have. Okay, so leave
the Ikea furniture when we were in college

Karthik Chidambaram: So I was talking to a cousin of mine and he, it
resonates with me, well because he said something very similar to what you
said. He said hey, you know I'm gonna buy a bed, but I'm gonna really spend
a lot of money on that because I'm spending eight hours, like one third of
my day, on the bed.

So it's very important that I invest in a good bed and not just-

Luis Ruesga: So I'm going to share with you a story. Think about your car,
okay? You buy a Lexus and it's 60,000, you're going to drive it for maybe
three to five years. And you're going to depreciate the asset, probably half
of the price. So that Lexus is going to cost you, in depreciation, 30,000

And you're going to drive it one hour a day. So that means you're driving it
only 300 hours a year, okay? But you're still depreciating that 30,000. Your
mattress, you sleep on it eight hours a day and you are changing your
mattress only every ten years. If, if the mattress gets lucky. So, but the
mattress only costs 500 bucks.

Why are you spending so much money on your car? And I'm not asking you to
buy a 30,000 mattress. There is, in case you want it. But why are we
spending so much money in a car when we only spend there, one hour? And not
in our mattress that we spend eight hours a day? So, it's the same, if
you're going to spend the best hours of your day with your kids having
dinner at home, make sure they're in the most beautiful and most comfortable
chair, because that time is more important than you driving your Lexus back
to work.

Karthik Chidambaram: I love the analogy between a car and a mattress. Right?
It's a great analogy. So when I was in the San Francisco Bay Area, it was
about ten years ago or maybe a little longer than that. I wanted to buy a
sofa for my house in Fremont, and I wanted to buy a new one. And then I
thought, okay, you know what?

Let me not buy a new one. Let me buy a used one. And again, you know, we
looked at Craigslist, and I went to somebody's house. It was a black couch.
I thought it was really, really good, and I paid a premium for it because he
told me that, hey, you know, it's a premium couch, and, you know, you gotta
pay. I said, okay, you know, probably if I buy it outside, it's going to
cost me a lot of money, so I pay a premium to him and I buy it and I put it
in my house.

But then as soon as I put it in a couple of days, I find out that there's a
lot of dust. And if I go in, you know, it's very dirty. I kind of felt
really bad. You know, say I bought a used furniture. So when, I mean what
tips would you give for buying a used furniture or used versus new? You
know, what are your thoughts there?

Luis Ruesga: Oh, that's a tough question. I suggest you don't buy used
furniture because you don't know what happened to that piece of furniture
before. You know, it's- I don't want to tell you all the stories about
bacteria that can be out there. So, I think adjust to your budget, you know.

It's furniture, fabrics, clothing. I mean, if you don't know if it's
completely cleaned and de-sanitized, it might be a hard thing to bring it
back to your home.

Karthik Chidambaram: Yeah, I think that's the mistake I did. I totally
relate to that right now, now that I think about it. Probably, you know, it
wasn't sanitized, you know, it was a problem, and then, you know, we just
had to throw it away, you know, in spite of spending so much money.

Luis Ruesga: I think you did the, well, you know, the correct thing.

Karthik Chidambaram: Correct thing. So, talking about furniture, I mean,
this is just a perception. Correct me if I'm wrong. The perception is, hey,
furniture companies operate on a lot of margins, right? So, is that a right
perception, or how's that?

Luis Ruesga: You know, I have heard that before. I think the problem with
the furniture is there is a lot of returns and damages and transit. And
sometimes those have to be included on the price. So, but also furniture
takes a lot of space. So the cost of a storaging, the cost of
transportation, the cost of moving it, the cost of carrying it, it's a
little bit higher than just a book.

So, so I think that's maybe why the procession of furniture might say that,
oh, it's, you know, too expensive. Now, remember also this. Furniture should
be an investment for you. It should be something that will last 10, 15 years
at your home. So it's a little bit different than the t shirt that we can
wear five times and dispose it.

So you should be careful with your investment, where you put in your money,
but definitely make it a good space for you to live in.

Karthik Chidambaram: Switching gears a little bit to leadership. So you've
been a leader for over 20 years. You've led Zuo Modern as a CEO. What have
been some of your biggest learnings, or someone you advise you would share?

Luis Ruesga: You know, it's one of the things that we have, Steve and I, we
have tried to do, implement at Zuo. It's, we treat this as a family. We are
like, You know, we have about 60 people on our staff and we have been into
their weddings. We have been into the baptism of the kids. I mean, we know
their personal stories.

One of our employees is right now taking their kids to college and we were
all saying congratulations. So we, we really treat each other like family
and we love that aspect. We're very transparent as well. We tell them the
good news and the bad news. We tell them, the possibilities, etc. So, I
think we still treat Zuo as a small business, as a family.

And I think why people is here happy to work with us. We have employees that
have been in the company for almost 18 years now. It's

Karthik Chidambaram: amazing, yeah. So, take care of people and then they
take care of you.

Luis Ruesga: That is correct. That's a great analogy.

Karthik Chidambaram: And Even if it's good news or bad news just
communicate, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Just communication is very important. And let's say somebody
who's aspiring in their 20s. You know, just like Luis, hey, I want to start
a business. I want to be an entrepreneur. I want to start a furniture
company or any company for that matter.

Luis Ruesga: I say don't be afraid of failing. You know, they say that 30
percent of new companies only survive in the next first two years.

Everybody else go out of business. But, I say when you work really hard,
when you have an idea, when you have the desire, and when you have the
passion in what you do, You have a great, great bigger chance. So, so just
don't give up. I think these, the world needs more entrepreneurs. We need
more small, medium sized businesses create more jobs.

And, don't be driven just by the money. You know, there is a lot of
satisfactions that come with the job. And if you're successful with what you
do, software, furniture, you're gonna make money no matter what. But, the
satisfactions, the friendships that you're gonna build on the way, the
trips, the knowledge, that has no value.

Karthik Chidambaram: The theme of this podcast is driven. How are you driven
as a person?

Luis Ruesga: For me, I don't know. I've been blessed with, like, energy. I
mean, I think, I love what I do. I love, for me, the passion that I feel
about furniture, when I see a chair, when I see a table, when I see a
project completed, when I see the grand opening of a hotel, it's just
amazing.

I'm gonna share a simple story. I remember the first year or two when we
were in business, I was visiting one of my customers, a furniture store, and
for the first time I see a person paying for one of my products, like really
paying for one of my products. And I was like, so blessed. I was like, wow,
that person has many different options. She could buy anything she wanted,
but she decided to pick on my product.

That satisfaction. Keeps driving me still every day and now when I go to the
warehouse and I see hundreds of boxes shipping out I still remember that
those boxes are gonna end up in your house or in my house. They're gonna end
up in a real application. It's not just a box or a dream or a chair anymore.
It's going to be a lifestyle in your home for the next five years. So I love
it.

Karthik Chidambaram: And my last question is, how do you keep yourself
updated? You know, what book are you reading right now?

Luis Ruesga: Updated? I love podcasting. Podcasting is, you know, I spend a
lot of time traveling, so podcasting is one of my favorite things. Book,
ones I'm reading right now is the story of Marriott how he started from a
little shack selling root beer and how he's now 6,500 hotels. I mean, you
know, one of the biggest challenges here at Zuo is to communicate with seven
different countries where we have warehouses or manufacturers. I think in
the book, he says he's in 125. So I cannot imagine the amount of problems
that he has compared to what we do. But yeah, I mean, Marriott is one of our
biggest customers, and I decided to start reading his book and so far it's
great.

Karthik Chidambaram: And what podcast do you listen to?

Luis Ruesga: So, right now my wife got me into this it's called Gossip
Business. And it's, instead of just learning about business, it's all the
gossip behind it. So, they're talking about all the fights between Neil and
Musk and, you know, all, all the, like, Ruby and, and how are they fighting
with each other.

So it's pretty interesting. It's short. It's about 30 minutes each. But it
just gives you- And the idea of this is in the morning when you're traveling
to work, it's nice to have a laugh, to relax a little bit, to distract your
mind and get you prepared for the day that you have in front of you.

Karthik Chidambaram: Yeah, and you should also subscribe to Driven by
DCKAP’s podcast as well.

Luis Ruesga: I will do that.

Luis, it's been a great conversation. I really enjoyed chatting with you.
One thing which I really learned from this conversation is, hey, let's say
you buy a house, 10 percent of that money goes into furniture and the
analogy you gave between a car and a bed, hey, you know, you're spending
more time on the bed.

Just invest in the furniture, makes a lot of sense. I'm actually motivated
to go buy new furniture for my house. So Luis, thank you so much and great
chatting with you. Thank you.

Luis Ruesga: Thank you very much. And again. Thank you for making our life a
little bit easier with all these integrations. That's definitely our
favorite part that working with you. I mean, the integrations you did with
us on FedEx and UPS and all the different applications made a whole
difference and make you save substantial money in terms of the labor of the
company.

Karthik Chidambaram: Thank you for being a DCKAP customer and thank you for
being a part of this podcast. We have never done one on the furniture
industry. This is our first one. I'm very excited to learn about the
industry.

Luis Ruesga: My pleasure. Thank you very much.