Dave Fish

23. Why Your Company Needs to Focus on Building a CX Team

Episode 23

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Not very often you see companies investing in a customer experience team. But, more than anything else, if you’re looking for exponential growth this is where you should begin first.

But like all of you, I do have this question, where to begin and what kind of benefits will it bring in.

Our guest today is David Fish, CEO, and Founder of CuriosityCX, a consumer research and customer experience consultancy company. He has launched over 50 large scale CX programs across multiple industries.

Show Notes

01:48The journey towards doing a doctorate in applied psychology, where did it all start. 03:27Customer experience mistakes that eCommerce brands are making in 2020. 06:01Why global shipping is something your brand should focus on now. 09:18How to reduce your product returns. 13:49Do consumers really like those product surveys? 17:58Why having an internal CX team is really important? 21:25What do consumers expect when they visit your website homepage. 24:22What helps you to create a brand identity. 26:25Do chatbots really add value to a consumer when they browse your website? 30:16How to create an effective journey mapping customer experience? 36:06One advertisement that Dave liked? 36:52Customer experience efforts that Dave liked – one digital and one on non-digital.

Show Links and References

Shiva 00:00
Hi, I'm Shiva Kumaar. And you're listening to driven ecommerce at work, the podcast, where we bring in conversations with the e commerce experts to talk about their processes and lessons learned in creating an impact on the online business. Hey, what's up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of driven e commerce network. Our guest today is David fish. He's the founder and CEO of curiosity CX, a consumer research and customer experience consultants and consultancy company. He has launched two or 50, large scale cx programs across multiple industries. And his prior experiences include American Savings Bank, Toyota married CX, more, he's also an adjunct professor at University of Kansas and advisor at Michigan State University. Thanks for being a guest on our show. Dave, welcome.

Dave 01:06
Thank you. Good to be here. Sure.

Shiva 01:08
Cool morning. How's the how's the week going? so far?

Dave 01:12
We're early. So so far, so good. It's Monday at 930? or? Yeah. Oh, nine o'clock. So we're so far we're off to a good start. Okay,

Shiva 01:20
perfect. So how long you walking in home? Is this like new for you this pandemic situation or confirm all month things?

Dave 01:28
No, no, I've worked from home for I don't know, close to 15 years or so. And so no, this isn't, this isn't new to me at all. But what is new is having until recently, my entire family here with me. So that's a that's that's the new part of it, or we're managing quite well.

Shiva 01:46
Okay. Okay. So one thing I was wondering is about I mean, when I looked at your education, so you have a phenomenal career in the customer experience, right? You also have a huge interest in psychology. You did your bachelor's in psychology and Master's in Applied Psychology. And you also, I mean, you actually didn't stop there, right? You got a doctorate in Applied Psychology and organizational behavior, right. So where did this I mean come from and how it helped shaping your career?

Dave 02:15
Yeah, I always, um, for me, I always enjoy the gray, like, so a lot of people like to be able to solve a math problem, and take satisfaction that having everything kind of an order. I like I like the areas that are not easy to solve easier. And, and always interested around, let's surround the next quarter. So and that's human behavior, right? You don't really ever know, you know, completely what someone's going to do. But it's kind of fun to try to figure out, what are those things that make people do what they do. And so every time I do a study and talk to someone, qualitatively, I'm learning something new, that I didn't know before. Or every time I analyze the data set, it's like opening a brand new book, right? mystery book, you don't know what you're gonna really find you have some hypotheses about what's in there. But you never really know until you start looking at it. And so that that's really what's driven my curiosity over the over the years is what's around the corner. And the fact that it's not, it's not always solvable, right. It's just, it's just an ongoing sort of investigation. It's it's a lot of fun. But that's, that's what gets me out of bed in the morning.

Shiva 03:25
Okay, okay. Cool. So I actually read your cx article, I guess, the one that you posted on your blog. So you mentioned about how the chocolate box unboxing was, you know, ruined by the company when you actually ordered for your kids? Right. So you also talked about the packaging of Gillette, and Harris, and how companies like you know, Apple and Cox Communications are making the unboxing experience simple, especially from the consumer point of view. I think, you know, we're getting more and more digital in the past couple of months. So other than, you know, this packaging sort of thing. So what are some of the customer experience mistakes that you see, you know, in the e commerce brands are making Actually,

Dave 04:10
yeah, I think Sony commerce does a wonderful job. In fact, the rest of the other industries can really learn from them in terms of making it super simple. And so that's, you know, it's that that first click, you know, CRM, and marketers know, that, you know, getting getting someone to make one small behavior is, is the key to getting them to make larger behavioral commitments into the future. So those those companies to do a really good job of making it as simple as possible. And having that mystery, like that's one of the drivers of human behavior is, you know, what's around the corner. And so, you know, should I click on this? What's, what am I going to learn? What am I going to get out of it? what's around the corner? So so those are the companies that do really well it's make it simple, the companies that don't do it Other than mistakes from an e commerce standpoint, is making it complicated. It's like, you know, you go in and like a multiple sign ons is a great example of our complicated passwords to log in, or one of the something like Amazon does a terrific job right at the end, just swipe, when you buy, they take all the friction out of buying them do a wonderful job, when you can, you know, look here, see what you want, they'll give you suggestions for what other things you might need, related to that or even not, and then to buy, you literally just swipe. So I think, like I said, removing the, it's, it's removing the friction, but it's also creating a sense of wonder and interest. if appropriate, you know, some things, it's kind of hard to do with pay your water bill. But other things, if you're if you're selling something, you must have a passion around it, it's inspiring folks to be passionate about it as well. So I think those are, those are some of the some of the magic.

Shiva 06:02
So to me, you know, I I still see, you know, their gaps in the shipping, it's high time we been in a waiting for a moment like this, consumers are now ready to, you know, buy from the global stores. And due to the fact that, you know, most of the online stores, displays, you know, out of stock products. So when you know, you know, you're getting global visits, I wonder, you know, why still, you know, companies are not ready to ship to the other countries. I mean, other than the USA, I was browsing for some products, and, you know, I realized one Li in your during the checkout or cart page, you know, there is no international shipping. So do you think a global shipping would actually help the e commerce business right now are? How do you how do you see that from the e commerce or the consumer perspective?

Dave 06:45
Yeah, no, I think I'm, most consumers don't really care where it comes from. It's to be honest with you, I mean, they'll tell you, if you ask people to be they'll be some sentiment nationalism about point of origin. But I think more or less American consumers, at least, are open to global commerce. And as long as it's from a verified freight forwarder, or shipping provider, that they feel comfortable with that. And so I think you see, just a ton of evidence. I mean, we're, this this, this virus originated in China, yet, our commerce in China, at least for consumer durables has not slowed down. You know, that's, that's a lot of those masks that are flowing in the US on Amazon, other sites are originating in China in our short, we're sure that, you know, folks are ordering this. So I do think the answer your question, that global shipping piece of it is, is really important, and people are willing to, I think the other thing, too, is maybe touched on this is the waiting part of it, um, Amazon and grubhub, and all these other companies have changed Americans expectation around the wait time, and it's not just for Amazon and grubhub. And Uber Eats, it's once you have expectation for things coming, you know, quickly, that's reset across all the categories, so they don't have a lot of Americans don't have a lot of patience for for shippers who are going to be slow. Now, that could vary by category, if you're, if you're selling very high end things are things that are very hard to find, or like say, for furniture, which is expensive to ship, people are willing to do that trade off and think a bit more, but for for most cases, people want it now. And that's and that's maybe brick and mortar right is, you know, is the Can I wait for a day, and then that overcomes the hassle of me having to go down to my local, you know, superstore and, you know, go into the crowds of people with face masks on, you know, maybe a few not and that that whole safety issue coming into play to which I think is also driving a lot of the e commerce that you see going on.

Shiva 09:18
Yeah, and from a consumer standpoint, how you think the e commerce brands can actually reduce the product returns You know, I've seen mattress company offering hundred day free trial. So if you don't like the product, you can simply return the product and then request a refund. Companies like this, you know, they do this because they have a strong belief in the product. But I'm just curious and I'm trying to understand So what makes a consumer return their product?

Dave 09:46
Yeah, so, um, you know, just an extreme dissatisfaction. It's, it's kind of a hassle to return things. And so like the mattress companies, they Yeah, they believe in their product, but the thing about getting a mattress delivered to your house right now you have to get it back to the site, oh, people don't like them get to get mad and you don't have a bed to sleep on. I mean, we're, by the way. So it's one of those things like on the face of it is, it seems like a risky move by a mattress company to do. But in reality, I don't have the data. But I would suspect that there's very, very few people, even a few that are kind of moderately satisfied that says, you know, I'm gonna ship this thing back. So I think the other thing though, for smaller products, um, if you ever do like a return on like an Amazon, they make it really easy, right? You just, you know, you literally, they don't even ask questions half the time, they just print this, this slip up, put it on the package and go down to your local, you know, FedEx or UPS and give it to him. And they make returns really easy. So I think those two those two pieces of it, again, the friction piece, right. But what is the the number of returns that are done, I think in some categories is quite low. But another another thing, the retailer or the commerce provider makes easy. And then the other thing around that is, in the case of fitting, right? So, um, in the case of clothes, or anything, shirts, shoes, anything you need to put on the site that will help them really figure out, you know, what, what is this? And how does it fit? What does it look like, and so the e commerce part of it really accurately displaying the the, the product in FAQs, and just just giving them as much information as possible, so that when they do receive it, they're not confused. I'll give you an example. So I recently bought a guitar, not the one back there, but I bought a Martin guitar. And, you know, I was like, this looks really nice. It was it was cheap. promark guitars are expensive. So it came in the mail, I opened it up. And it was a it was a mini guitar. It was I didn't know they made many guitars when I was like this, it was like this big. And one of the guitar, you know. And if I read the fine print a little more closely, I would have noticed that it was a mini guitar, but it wasn't. So um, I sent it back. So that's another one where it is free shipping free return. So they cost Martin guitars or whoever selling it money that they probably didn't need to have spent, it could have been a little more clear on what the specifications of the product were in the first place.

Shiva 12:28
And I think I've also seen consumers, I mean, some of my friends and colleagues. So they used to do this sort of research, they still look at the e commerce website, they just browse them, do some competition analysis. And then once they do all these things, they just come back to Amazon, and they just ordered there. I'm sure why I mean, this is because they have this sort of like you said they have this one day delivery. And then you have this like very simple return process. They don't even ask you a question, say if you don't like it just return. That's it. Right?

Dave 12:57
Yeah, it's super nice. That's another thing you bring up to is like, so many ecommerce sites are like big retailers, for example, who's who sell a lot of different products, the better ones, e commerce are putting, like grids together for customers. So they don't have to kind of they're making the research process easier. So they have to go through and kind of figure out okay, well, this has this much. And this says this much, why not make it easy for the consumer and just put it into a grid. Okay, so it's this big, or this small, or this much horsepower, this much wattage or whatever it is. And then you can just lined up side by side. So the consumer can look across and make an apples to apples comparison without having to kind of read through and do a lot of research. So again, we're just making it easier for them to shop and select what they want.

Shiva 13:47
Yeah, exactly. And so product survey has been considered, you know, one of the oldest marketing activities to learn more about audiences and buying behavior. But is that really the case? I mean, do consumers really like those surveys? Oh,

Dave 14:03
no, no. The trick is to not make it a survey, right? If you can. So when we go and talk with people, I'm out a conversation just like I'm having with you. We chat living rooms. And nowadays, it's it's the zoom, but you get a lot of really good information, just by talking with people. And but that's also not enough. We know that people don't always tell the truth, and they're not trying to lie. Sometimes they don't even know why they're doing what they're doing. And so so you have to make observations about why they're doing that. And sometimes, you know, that's called ethnography. So you go along with them and kind of just watch their behaviors. And you might notice they do something and say, Why do you do that? And like, I don't know. And then so you just kind of go to these five why's and try to kind of figure out why people do what they do. by it, sometimes just observing them. And they leave evidence as well, around behaviors. So you might notice a button that's sort of discolored, because so many people are using it or one side of the stairwell, it's worth more worn than another. It's sort of like consumer forensics, right? Whether they leave behind. But there isn't, there's there's also a lot of behavioral data. So we could look at purchase patterns and, and derive preferences from purchase patterns. And then you know, there is the good old fashioned survey. And sometimes you do just have to ask for what you're doing, you do have to send out a survey. So in those cases, what I try to do is make it one interesting to the short as possible, and three, make it worth their while. So you know, give them something in return for their time, whether that's cash or prizes, or whatever, as long as that reciprocity is there, or it could be information. So as long as that reciprocity is there, and it's a fair trade, for information for something, whether that's a social interaction, or money or information, and then you get some good, get some good data from people that are the ones that do it poorly, are the, you know, the annoying phone call you get during dinner, was a 15 minute survey, are the eight page written survey or the 15 minute online survey they have to do and it's very apparent that the researcher just doesn't really care about you, they want their questions answered in the questions are not maybe that good? or hard to answer or three don't know, like, what they're, you don't have the knowledge to answer the question. So it's one of those things that looks simple. That is, it's easy to screw up. So

Shiva 16:45
yeah, yeah, I mean, one thing that everyone says is, so go and look at the places where your customers are, instead of sending surveys, maybe you can just go and, you know, look at the posts they're doing on the social media, you can try to engage with them, like create content from there, but at the same time, you can get feedback from there. And I think you have to listen to customer calls as well. It's not just about the service. I mean, he cannot ask for more time from the customer.

Dave 17:12
Right? Yeah, that's great. It's like, you know, people like they'll say, Well, I hate surveys. But then we have Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn, people love to share their opinions, they love to talk about themselves. So just finding the rate, the rate, medium, the rate way to get them to talk about what they want to talk about, if you just bought a brand new guitar, a brand new car, you want to tell you, you want to tell others. And that's why ratings work so well. Like the people, they feel like they want to be an expert, they want to be heard, they want other people, they want to help people, some cases make better decisions. So the rating sites work fairly well, as long as they're verified customers. So fortunately, in some cases, they can get game too. So

Shiva 17:56
yeah, exactly. And Don, Every company has a customer experience team, I guess to you know, go one step further. I would say some of them don't even have the customer success team either. So you know why having an internal customer experience team is really important, and how does it actually differ from the typical customer success process or the team?

Dave 18:20
Yeah, so with customer success, I mean, that that definition varies by industry. But usually those have its implementation team, right. And they're, they're there to get a job done, and install a piece of software, or whatever, whatever is there, they're charged with doing and they do a good job. But, um, customer experience, teams within organizations are pretty important, um, in that they help coordinate in provide some kind of governance. So in order to have an end to end customer experience, someone has to sit down and say, here's what the customer wants. And here's what we should design to from an experience design standpoint. And so that transcends marketing and transcends operations, sales, product design, it really is a meta function of the organization that you have to make all these different functions work together and coordinate with one another. And so the customer experience team isn't charged with doing everything they're charged with helping these functional departments work effectively together to create a friction free experience as a baseline, and then from there, how can we improve the experience holistically. And so lead by example, a great company that just knocks out of the park has been Disney Disney resorts and theme parks, and every little aspect of that experience is orchestrated and purposely designed characters stay in character. They there's the You don't see any trash ever on the ground you everything is working together, including the merchandise the experience, what they sell, you know, everything, it's just beautifully done. And that's not by accident. There's two pieces that really makes it work well. One is the people that they hire in the philosophy, that's kind of the culture that's just embedded within. And the other piece of it is, they do have a coordinating force that helps coordinate them overall experience and think of it holistically and make sure it all works together. So yeah, is organizations grown size early on, it's easy for me, for example, it can control like us, which responses mean a few other people, our local hardware store, because they, you know, the owners there and maybe two or three other employees, when that gets difficult is when we get larger, we have multiple locations now coordinate one vision across a larger organization. And so it's not until organizations get to, you know, maybe, you know, several, several thousand customers or more, in maybe several thousand employees are important that they really need to start thinking about implementing something like this. Otherwise, you can kind of just do it automatically. It just happens.

Shiva 21:24
So, one thing that every cmo, you know, been telling lately, as your sales is directly proportional to the value you actually bring into your audience, or maybe you know, the customers. So the more value you bring into their life, the more conversion you can actually expect. So how does this actually applicable to Donnelly's online business? I mean, let's say from the consumer standpoint, can you tell us what's that one or two thing that's going to convert the first time visitor into a buyer? Right? I mean, what do consumers expect when they visit homepage of an online store?

Dave 22:01
Yeah, I think it's very, very clearly communicate what it is the value that you're providing. And, and so that one, like it's super, make it simple, make it clear, make it really interesting and unique, lure them in, not negative way, but invite them in. So that the best ones I've seen are just super open, this is what they sell, this is what it does. There's evidence that whatever they're claiming, it does, works. It's unique, it's different. And that's how that's how you get them into the into the first time of course, the other thing is SEO, right. So you want to be high on on that that first search page. A lot of searches done for retail, I forget the statistic, but it's quite high. The first stop that people make for buying anything is Amazon, they don't even go to Google, they just go straight to Amazon, but in soul search terms, so they Amazon owns a lot of search, right now. So that that's you know, if you have a storefront or whatever, um, that's a consideration too. So I think those those are the those are the things you want to do. And then you mentioned etail. And so I think it's important to understand that if you are an e commerce, you're an e commerce store. But you're more than that, right? You have your you have customer support obligations. So big frustration for startups is like you buy these new sunglasses, and you can't get a hold of anyone to save your life from a customer support standpoint. And I understand the reasons for doing that is to reduce overhead keeping costs down, but becomes to a point of the ridiculous we're like, Who is this person, like I bought a pair of headphones once and they didn't work that well. And I could literally not find anyone in the company or even he owned the company. Because I want to I want to replace and said that that's under understanding that you're selling things we have you as an organization have an obligation to also provide the total experience. So someone comes in buy something, you send it to them, they use it, they might have questions or want to return it, it's owning the entire thing, not just that, that ecommerce piece of it, which is important, but just one piece of the overall overall experience.

Shiva 24:22
Okay, so when it comes to content creation, and the content marketing strategy, everyone has their own way of doing. But when it comes to, you know, creating and the brand, the brand identity, I mean, what type of content actually works. I mean, everyone is talking about the social media marketing strategy and offering value to the audience. But from a consumer standpoint, what an e commerce business should actually do to create that, you know, Brian for their business.

Dave 24:51
Yeah, I think there's a couple things one is, you know, really having a sip one clear Understand what it is that you're selling, like, like I mentioned before that brand identity, I'm having emotional appeal as possible. So we know that emotional connections are very powerful and people remembering, I'm remembering, you know what you what you do, though, in some verticals, that might be challenging, but you can connect it to happy memories or sad memories or whatever those things are. That's going to that's going to create a more powerful brand. uniqueness. So how do you stand out? So, you know, no one, no one ever. There's no such thing as timid marketing, right? You have to be bold, you have to you have to take a stand and do especially if you're small, be even controversial. Those those are the things so I think some people, when they start a business, they want to pick a logo that looks like other people's logos, or pick a color or style, because it's consistent. That's a great way to be forgettable, you don't want to be you don't want to be part of the pack, you want to stand out. And so just be different, be weird. possible, and in a way you're doing. You don't want to offend too many people, but, you know, take risks to be successful. So that'd be my recommendation. Okay.

Shiva 26:25
So the way that businesses do marketing has changed over the past couple of years. I mean, everyone is trying to, you know, bringing the human side of their company, companies themselves or promoting their employees to build personal branding, which is what you know, going to bring in value because the customers wanted to see who the real faces behind that brand, right. So in this scenario, how do you how do you see the chat bots? This chat bot serving the right purpose? And I mean, does it really add value to the consumer?

Dave 26:55
Yeah, no, I think chatbots are all the rage rate for the last couple years anyway. But, um, the the, I think they work really well, especially with younger audiences. So a couple things to think about one who's your audience, the generation in front of me likes to talk on the phone, Gen Xers, some Gen wires emailers, the current generation text, that's that's what they do in chat. That's cool. So you want to make sure you're lining up your mobile button you modalities of customer sprint, vacation or preferences of what your customers want. So that's the first thing. The second thing that chat box specifically, the nice thing about chat bots is one as long as you're transparent, that you're that you're, you're you have a chat bot with your customers, and they're, they're able to answer limited questions. People are fine with that, like, okay, I just need this basic information. And but the idea that you can, again, this idea that consumers can opt to kind of get to that next level, to easily get to a human being, is really important. So as far as flipping it around, looking at the consumer, or the company side of the equation, you have one person who can maybe take on three, four, or five different inquiries all at the same time. So it's, it's really quite nice from an efficiency standpoint, and able to kind of maintain and keep multiple inquiries going on at the same time. And I think that's the floor. So in general, I think it works pretty well. Some of the mistakes and chatbots that people make, like I said, is one, not pretending that they are people when they're not to have tried to have a chatbot do things that humans need to do so in other words, just letting chatbots work on their own without any human guidance or intervention. And then three, trying to have a chat bot rule across to too much of the customer journey. And so you should focus your chat bots on whatever area that they're, you know, in terms of the AI part of it, you can only stretch those guys so far in terms of the substantive area they're covering. So it's customer support. Let's Let's have a chatbot. For that if it's on acquisition, so check off that. He gotta get those chatbots learned up on those specific domains, rather than trying to stretch them across the entire cycle. That makes sense.

Shiva 29:22
Yeah, yeah. I think like I said, I mean, I mean, consumers don't like faking it. I mean, let's say if you're being upfront about that, you know, okay, you're using the chat bot sometimes, you know, they appreciate Okay, so, I mean, it's like, it's answering something more than what he can do. And then they pretty much you know, sure about what questions they'll have to ask. So that's a good thing. I mean, to be honest about what you're doing.

Dave 29:46
Yeah, that's, I mean, that's good. That's the basic ideas. You know, it's all about human interaction. You you like people who are honest, you trust them, then that builds trust. The brand is nothing more than the Just another nothing more than like a personalities interacting with someone, someone else, you know, it's like you want to be able to trust it, you want them to be frank with you, they we want to know there's a person back there and they're human beings. So yeah, absolutely.

Shiva 30:15
Yeah. And can you tell us a little about, you know, customer journey map and how to create an effective journey mapping, you know, customer experience? Yeah, sure.

Dave 30:26
So that journey mapping is a, it's been around for a while now. Um, but the idea behind it is to understand, when you get your functional roles within an organization, you start looking at your little, your little piece of the elephant, and not really understanding the overall the overall view of the organization. So when we do journey mapping, in some marketing folks kind of view dream mapping, as you know, pack purchase, how can we get them to buy more stuff. And that's, you know, that's cool. But that's not how we go about doing it, ours is more of a holistic approach to it, where it's more or less an organizational change, and this year, so we're looking to, of course, most organizations are in business to make money. But you make money by delivering value. And so let's focus on that. So the first thing we do is, is sort of go out and get the internal take on how you know, stream that how do you think it works for DC pack? You know, what, what gets people started from the catalyst? What makes them decide to buy something from DC cap? And then Okay, we'll walk me through what happens next. Okay, well, then they decide to purchase and who is purchasing who's not? And then once they get interaction, or they start doing business with DC cap, what does that look like? And were those moments of truth? And then at some point, maybe they're the project ends? What does that look like? And how does the billing look and keep that whole internal view from from cradle to grave, if you will, and then like, okay, in a way, by the way, within the app, we get, you know, Shiva, Karthik, and like, just a different parts of the organization, together, marketing, sales, all together, operations. So in through that discussion, there's usually a lot of online, I didn't know he did it that way. You know, I didn't know you told him that, because we call this down here and right there, and then you have the organization communicating with one another, and you're making connections, now, maybe a company the size of VC capitalists, that's not as much of an issue, because you are connected. But when you get to scale, when you get to the size of Walmart, enough, you know, you can be in the same department and not go everybody. So I'm making those connections across the organization. There's, there's value right there. But we don't stop there. The next thing we do is we go out, we talk to customers, and we say, Okay, here's, here's what's your experience, and we'll do it a lot of different ways. I like to do it qualitatively just go out and talk, talking with people and just listening and hearing them. Or in some cases, we'll go and observe, you know, how, how are they going about this experience? And then we'll come back and we'll compare the two. So you know, they said internally, here's what it looks like, this is what your customers are saying. And we'll have a meeting and rate in that meeting. There's like a, oh, my God, I didn't know that's why that's happening. And, you know, or I didn't know that was occurring, or no, no, that could occur. And, and so there's, there's a good conversation right there. And then, and we'll put together a training map, a visual map, but a lot of people make the mistake, the map is the the outcome, it's really the journey, right? The journey of making the dream that because that's where the change happens, because internal stakeholders are recognizing where these opportunities and all lie both from reducing friction to Oh, well, you know, what we can do here is there's an opportunity there already here, you know, maybe we can suggest something else they might want to purchase to go along with this accessory or whatever. So there's also marketing opportunities in there too. And so then after that, sometimes we'll go into a bond at this stage because senior bank, there's a one or two people that complain about the hardest reorder checks, is reordering checks a big issue and where does that rank amongst all the things we need to work on? So we what we do is we'll go out and do some kind of quantitative usually a survey of their customers. And at the end, we work with the final session we call reconciliation, and action planning where it will it will pull a chapter from design thinking and the thing in design thinking one of the things we use is we are able to rank these things in terms of desirability What does the customer want from from serve A to Zed and importance and then but that's that's not enough. We just stopped there we would we would go out of business, right? Because we just Only thought about what the customer wants. And in just, you know, design experiences that a restaurant would have a one one ratio waiters and waitresses to customers. So that's not sustainable. So we need to not only look at what the customer wants, but how feasible is it to do that? So you know, which isn't going to class, what's the technical complexity of that? And then what's the viability, how much money we're going to make, how much money we're gonna save. So it's those three things to rank all these things that we've discovered a dream. And that's, that's our, that's our list to go out in and fix things are our design new things for is desirability feasibility viability. And so from there, we're done, we're not done, but we have a list of things we need to work on, then we get cross organizational groups together, and they start, you know, trying to solve these problems now that we know what they are. So that's in a nutshell for how it works.

Shiva 35:59
Okay. Okay. So before we go, I've just got some quick questions. It doesn't have to be detail, just a brief about it. So can you tell us one advertisement that you actually liked can be b2b or b2c? And like, I mean, it can be digital or non digital.

Dave 36:17
When advertising? Yeah. Jeez, that's a hard one. I think. I think anything that has humor in it always appeals to me, I remember the one that kind of sticks in my mind. Remember, the FedEx one where they're in a meeting? And the one guy's like, Hey, have an idea. Why don't we send by FedEx, we can save all this money, and everyone wears them. And then the executive says, Wait a minute, I have an idea. Why don't we send it by FedEx? And it was a good idea. So the use of humor? I think, for me, emotion is pretty effective.

Shiva 36:52
And can you tell us one or two customer experience that you liked, I mean, one from the digital maybe online and other from maybe retail? Non non digital?

Dave 37:03
Sure. Digital one. Amazon's amazing, you know that it's like the no hassle. You know, I ordered? Like, I forget, like HP sauce, I think and it took like four months to get here. And I'm like, it's taken forever. I don't I don't want this. And the question that they just refunded me was super easy. The guy on the chat session was friendly, it wasn't an act like a bot. Like we'd kind of goofing around or whatever. Super, super easy. So that's, that's a great one. Um, as far as experience, that's non digital, you know, just short story. But I was at a four seasons. And we are out and we're coming back for season hotel. And we're just chit chatting with someone else about how the bar had closed. And there's no beer or whatever. And it was it was just making conversation. Well, there's someone behind me that worked for the resort overheard me so the next night we gave back and there's a there's a six pack of like, cold beer waiting in the room. So sort of a wasn't a complaint. I didn't make a complaint. He just heard me and decided to do something special. And so I pulled that story 23 times now. I'm sure it had an ROI.

Shiva 38:18
Cool. Yeah, that's good to hear. The Thank you so much. And the very one, the listeners to go. Do you want to give them some links? about you? And

Dave 38:26
yeah, uh, yeah. If you want to learn more about curiosity, what we do, we're at curiosity, fix calm. So give us a visit. I also publish on customer think, which is Bob, Bob Thompson say. So take a look there. And I have a book that's coming out. It's called the field book, Field Guide to cx guide. No Frills guy getting stuff. stuff done. So now I'm looking to get that published early next year. Everything goes well. So it's been it's been a really great talk with you today.

Shiva 38:58
Cool. Yeah, for sure. Dave, I'll put all those links in the podcast description. Thank you so much for taking your time today, Dave, and you have a good day. Take care.

Dave 39:06
Thank you. Thanks. Bye bye.

Shiva 39:11
Thank you so much for watching and listening to this episode of driven ecommerce at work podcast. This show is brought to you by DCKAP. The company well known for its e commerce product, so it's for b2b distributors. To learn more, visit dc cab.com. That's www.dckap.com. Make sure you subscribe to Apple podcasts, Spotify. Google podcasts are valuable. You're listening. Catch you guys very soon with another interesting episode. Until next time, see you.

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